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/2016/02/17/9602721_NiMH-Battery-Bounceback
You are here:
PureEnergySystems.com > News > February 17, 2016

Stuart Campbell - LED NiMH Torch Test
Now Running Non Stop for 14 Days

Test 1 - (Test Finished) Regular Bulb Torch - 3 x AA's 2.8v & 0.85 amps(2,600mAh NiMH).
Test 2 - (Test Still Running) LED Torch - 3 x AAA's (800mAh NiMH).
Test 3 - (Test Still Running) LED Torch - 3 x AAA's (VARTA Alkaline Longlife)
None of the torch's are an Elfe brand.

 


by Stuart Campbell
Pure Energy Systems News

* * * LED Torch - NiMH Test * * *

.............. Click Here for led nI-mh torch test

Latest Updates :

14 days non-stop achieved with ni-mh batteries.
summary friday - 04mar2016 at 11am Click Here


* * * LED Torch - ALKALINE Test * * *

same led torch. this time alkaline battery's.

this torch is fading fast compared to the ni-mh.
8 days 17 hours non-stop
summary friday - 04mar2016 at 11am

Click Here for alkaline torch test




REGULAR TORCH WITH REGULAR BULB - THIS TEST NOW COMPLETED
and RESULTS BELOW

ELFE Flashlight - The Naysayers View

Its being suggested that the Elfe Torch is relying purely on NiMH's having a bounceback effect between uses. That there is no re-charging taking place in the actual torch itself. Its all an illusion they say. Smoke and mirrors. Its just like any regular battery and will eventually flatten out through use and light no more. And that eventually the ELFE LED torch will light no more after a few weeks of use (if not days even).

Why I say the Bounceback Effect is Completely Over-rated

My experience is that bounce-back on a flattened NiMH battery is minimal. Maybe slightly more on brand new NiMH's, but from my experience unlikely to be more than 25% re-bounce at most.
But because I have never sat down and done an actual test of this before, I thought why not test just a regular torch out, and see what happens. Bounce-back is bounce-back, and the fact that the ELFE torch has LED's makes little difference, but none the less there is a difference, so let me explain.

Regular Torch versus LED Torch

A regular torch is not much different to an LED one. Both give out light visible to our eye's. Regular bulbs will go until they almost flatten the battery. And if the bulb goes out visibly, the fact that it is a resistive load will still drain the battery for quite a while, albeit with no visible light, but does reach a limit.

LED's generally have a controller chip in them to stop the battery going flat. LED's cannot go dim quite like a regular bulb does, right to the edge. But they do dim for certain. There is a certain point whereby they just have to drop out as they can no longer keep going. They have to have a certain voltage and current in order to keep going, and once that threshold is reached they just stop operating.
So there is a likelihood of more current still in the battery, hence the possibility of more bounce-back.
Possibly. My view is "don't over-rate" the chances.


My Bounce-back Test

I have 2 x NiMH brand new batteries, Panasonic AA's, 1.2v, 2600mAh batteries now on the charger.
The batteries when charged should be circa 2.6v (combined).
Note: I found this not to be the case as I measured them quickly after charging. Had I left them out to cool they most likely would have been around that mark
I will measure that and the milliamp load before putting them into the torch. Each battery separately will also be measured.

I will be placing them into a torch that has a regular bulb (rather than LED) 2.8v 0.85 amp. The bulb is a Halogen.
I will run the torch until it completely goes dead. This will happen much quicker than if they were to be powering an LED bulb.
Measurements will be taken of the batteries at that point.

I will then leave them overnight to bounce-back. And measure the bounce-back of the batteries at that point the next day.
Then I will place them in the torch and see what happens.

People who charge a lot of NiMH's (daily like me), recommend always discharging before re-charging.
YES, you should always do that with NiCd's due to the memory effect.
NiMH do have some memory effect even though they say they don't.
I have tried both methods, immediate charging, and also discharging before charging, and not really found that the discharging for NiMH makes anything better (or worse come to that), after having done each for months at a time. Discharging also slows the process up tremendously. So I cannot recommend one way being better than the other, from my personal experience.
But like I say, many people always say "discharge before re-charging".


Test Begins at 11.22am WED 17 Feb 2016 (NZ Time)

Measurements of batteries taken straight out of the charger. This is a consistent regulated charger, which will also discharge batteries becore re-charging them (if you so wish). The charger determines when they are fully charged, thereafter providing a light float charge.
Normally if you left the battery's for 30 mins or an hour, or so (this is out of the charger after having been re-charged), the voltage and mAh would drop quite a bit. Because I have taken them out almost immediately of the charger when it was saying they are "fully charged", they are still warm. As they cool they lose voltage and mAh.
The torch is sitting on the computer, aiming straight at my eyes. Thankfully it is not as bright as LED's are, therefore not annoying. But I do want to be sure that I am there when it goes flat and not missing that happening.

Readings Straight Out Of Charger
Combined:
2.985v .......... 261mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.452v ......... 133.4mA
Batt 2 = 1.451v ......... 132.6mA


Torch Runs Out at 1.57pm - Running Time 2hrs 35 mins

At this point the readings were
Combined:
2.338v .......... 146mAh
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.184v ......... 95.3mA
Batt 2 = 1.168v ......... 82.6mA

The batteries were quite hot. I guess the load of 0.85 amps is more of a draw than I had bothered to sit down and figure out beforehand on the battery's themselves.
But looking at it further, the battery's storage was consistent with the final measured output.
Upon attaching the meter, the mAh numbers were continuing to drop rapidly from the initial reading, as I held the contacts on both ends. When it does this, it shows the battery is on its final legs as far as current storage goes.
Already the battery's are showing a bounce-back some 15 mins later. I think I will measure them at 10pm tonight. And then again tomorrow morning.
No two (or more) battery's will end up being evenly matched at the finish, even though they are coupled together. One is always the "leader" battery which directs the discharge (or charge if you are charging them together) and the others just follow the leader, but are not in step with each other.

One Hour Later

The first few minutes after the batteries came out of the torch, they were showing slight signs of bouncing back. I thought this looks good. There is obviously bounce-back happening.
BUT one hour later, there was absolutely no sign bounce-back, in fact the battery's had drained further.
This is not looking hopeful for later tests this evening and tomorrow.
We will wait and see

At 10pm Weds 17 Feb 2016
At this point the readings were (after a rest of 8 hours - for the battery's, not me !)
Combined:
2.427v .......... 131.7mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.214v ......... 93.2mA
Batt 2 = 1.210v ......... 81.4mA
Which shows a bounce-back in the voltage, but a decline in the mAh.
For current measuring the meter declined super rapidly when the contacts touched the battery ends.

So far this is proving my case.

Stuart 1 versus Naysayers 0.2 (A token for the Voltage Bounceback).


Final Result - 10.00am Thurs 18 Feb 2016
At this point the readings were (after a rest of 18 hours)
Combined:
2.425v .......... 132.4mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.216v ......... 92.5mA
Batt 2 = 1.211v ......... 80.6mA
Which shows NO furtherbounce-back in the voltage, but a slight decline/holding in the mAh.
For current measuring the meter declined super rapidly when the contacts touched the battery ends.

Final Conclusion
I do not think it would make much difference as to whether this was a regular torch or an LED one in respect of how the battery's react.
The only thing that would happen with an LED is that the drain would cut off earlier than with a regular bulb. But in the end, it would still drain.
In my test the battery was not fully drained either. It was stopped when the bulb stopped glowing. Either method allowed a base to still remain in the battery, as neither would drain it completely.

My conclusion is that there is just NO bounceback from NiMH sufficient that it would keep an LED torch going time after time, in spite of resting the torch.
Once the battery's are drained, they are drained. They do NOT come back.
The only thing that happened was a small gain in voltage. mAh continued to go down, and from the reaction of the meter, there was no possibility of recovery whatsoever, as it didn't even hold steady after resting, it just continued going immediately draining on contact.

Bounceback Is Debunked

It didn't happen folks. The bounceback did not happen. It was so minor as to be inconsequential.
The show is over for the bounceback theorists. Time to go home.

What Does This mean for The Elfe ?
It means that something is happening outside of bounceback.

Panasonic NiBH Battery Test
The Panasonic Torch Halogen Bulb 2.8v 0.85 amp
2 x NiMH Batteries @ 2600 mAh
Batteries marked 1 and 2











Rasa Viharii

Let us re-visit what Rasa had to say a few days ago. I think it is important as to what he has discovered

Rasa Viharii from the US wrote on Facebook (slightly edited)

Some results... When I take the batteries out of the flashlight, the voltage does not increase in the battery over time. When I put the batteries back into the flashlight, the batteries voltage slowly does start to increase over time.


Remember, ADGEX does not want people opening the flashlight. Apparently, at least in this case, the flashlight function was not destroyed by his opening it.

 

 


*** LED Ni-MH Battery Test ***


Luna Lite Brand - Made in China.
Sold in New Zealand & Australia.
Torch Cost - $10.28 (NZD).
Came with regular battery's (not being used for test).
12 Super Bright Mini LED's.
3 x AAA Panasonic Evolta Batteries NiMH 800mAh.

This torch has surprised me for the price. Its not junk. You would expect it to be junky for $10.28. Its got a solid thick metal feel to it, because it is just that. Its not just a tin plated type casing. You could drop it without putting a dent in it.
Its all metal, quite a decorative torch, great hand-grip and easily worth more than the purchase price. Its extremely well constructed. The parts that screw in, do so a lot better than a plastic torch would. Its definitely a quality torch at an unbelievable price. I am very impressed. The torch also has "O" rings in it, so would be waterproof, including a switch which is also waterproof. The battery holder holds the battery's rock solid. You won't get flicker with this torch.
This is a very VERY good, well made Chinese torch.

In case anyone is wondering why I didn't just get an LED Torch that takes AA battery's, as I planned to, and for which I had already started re-charging the previous 2 x AA's in preparation for that purpose (used on the regular bulb torch), the answer is that I had to give up on the idea. No-one was selling an LED torch which used 2 AA's (or 3 AA's come to that). They seemed to jump from AAA to C or D from there, or plug-in chargers.

LED1

NEW LED Test Commenced
11.00am Fri 19 Feb 2016

This one uses re-chargeables -NiMH
Note: The first test was abandoned due to the discovery of a faulty battery.
This is now the second test results.

Measurements of batteries taken after straight out of the charger. This is a consistent regulated charger, which will also discharge batteries becore re-charging them (if you so wish). The charger determines when they are fully charged, thereafter providing a light float charge.
This torch is very bright. You cannot look at the LED's when they are going.

2nd Test Readings Straight Out Of Charger
Combined:
4.330v .......... 390.0mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.458v ......... 135.3mA
Batt 2 = 1.461v ......... 135.0mA
Batt 3 = 1.465v ......... 135.0mA


LED2





View of the 12 LED's "Bulb"








LED3


Only two AAA batteries in view as 3rd one still in charger.
The C size battery looking thing in the background, is actually the holder that holds the 3 x AAA battery's together circularly (all at same level), not unlike a six pack revolver.
Its actually a very good arrangement, I am impressed with it.Very compact and holds the battery's in firmly (unlike the Elfe where people are saying the battery's rattle around).


 

Now Been Running now for 14 days - Non Stop

STILL GOING

336 hours running now.

Absolutely not stopping for tests. If it goes this long, then it can just continue.
I am not doing regular updates anymore, they will just appear as I feel like it.



Summary (Friday 04Mar2016 - 11am)

Who would have thought we'd still be here 14 days later. Certainly not me.

The torch is losing its oomphf now. Still works in the dark though, just not as good.
When this torch stops I will let it rest and see if there is any bounce-back.


Readings:

Taken at the end of exactly 3 Days running.
If you compare it to a 24 hr resting (rather than straight out of the charger) normal, namely 1.37v and 127mA then the storage drop of the battery over the 3 days is 0.18v and 17.4mA
(based on the highest current reading).

At this point (the 72 hour mark) the readings were
Combined:
3.260v .......... 277.1mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.164v ......... 106.3mA
Batt 2 = 1.193v ......... 109.6mA
Batt 3 = 1.178v ......... 108.4mA

Compare to Starting Readings

2nd Test Readings Straight Out Of Charger
Combined:
4.330v .......... 390.0mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.458v ......... 135.3mA
Batt 2 = 1.461v ......... 135.0mA
Batt 3 = 1.465v ......... 135.0mA
Note: Readings are always much higher taken straight out of the charger. Left 24 hours they drop quite a bit.
to give you an idea. i have charged a battery (aaa) and left it for 24 hours. the readings are 1.37 volts and 127 mA.




Photo taken in dark (no flash and camera not set to take night photo's). Is brighter in real life than what photo shows. But you can see it is sufficient to in fact take a photo of it.

Here you can see just how bright this is at 47 running hours.

 

 

 


 

*** LED alkaline battery test***

crazy new test - this time exact same LED torcH, but this time alkaline battery's

Torch : Luna Lite Brand - Made in China.
Sold in New Zealand & Australia.
Torch Cost - $10.28 (NZD).
Came with regular battery's (not being used for test).
12 Super Bright Mini LED's.
3 x AAA VARTA Longlife ALKALINE Expiry Date Dec 2025

I went out and bought the very same LED torch. I am not using the battery's that came with it. Instead I am using good quality battery's, VARTA, German made. YES, we buy those in New Zealand. I have always used them, as I like their quality. They say "performance guaranteed or your money back". Battery's distributed in New Zealand by Spectrum Brands NZ Ltd.

LED1

NEW LED Test Commenced
6.00pm Weds 24 Feb 2016

This one uses 3 x VARTA Longlife
Alkaline Battery's AAA's 1.5v

Measurements of batteries taken straight out of packet.
They have an expiry date of Dec 2025 on them.

Readings Taken Straight Out of Packet
Combined:
4.610v .......... 392.6mA
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 1.567v ......... 141.2mA
Batt 2 = 1.565v ......... 141.0mA
Batt 3 = 1.566v ......... 141.3mA


Summary (Friday 04Mar2016 - 11am)

STILL GOING

209 hours running now.



Fading badly.
This torch is fading fast. Its not lasting anywhere near as long as the NiMH battery's. A real drop in light intensity. I really don't expect it to last much longer.


 


LED Torch Packaging












Ignore - Prep Only:- No actual readings yet

Torch Runs Out at x.xxpm - Running Time xhrs xx mins


At this point the readings were
Combined:
0.000v .......... 000.0mAh
Individual Battery:
Batt 1 = 0.000v ......... 000.0mAh
Batt 2 = 0.000v ......... 000.0mAh
Batt 3 = 0.000v ......... 000.0mAh


Earlier Customer Story


Purchase Flashlight

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Page composed by Stuart Campbell
Last updated March 4, 2016
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