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/2015/04/22/9602611_Buoyancy-Device-Skepticism/
You are here:
PureEnergySystems.com > News > April 24, 2015; 05:30 GMT

Part III: Rosch KPP buoyancy device skepticism

A collection of mathematical and scientific arguments against the concept of the Rosch technology that claims to harness the power of rising floats using pressurized air, which then descend after the air escapes above the water chamber. I include my reasons for believing. Rebuttal from GAIA CEO.

by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News

The following is some reasonable skepticism regarding these two stories we posted yesterday, and systems like them that have been presented through the years. Following these skeptical comments, I include my reasons for yet believing. I also posted a rebuttal from Roberto Reuter, CEO of GAIA, followed by a video of their Plexiglas demo unit.

Math says unity at best, with no resistance or other losses

From: Ryan Ross
To: Sterling Allan 
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 4:05 PM
Subject: Mathematical investigation on a Buoyancy Generator


Hi Allan [Sterling is my first name]

I saw your report titled "100 MW total Rosch Thrust Kinetic Generators in operation" and was quite intrigued by the idea of using buoyancy to generate electricity. I looked at the videos and pictures to try get an idea of the fundamentals of how such a generator works. Being a Chemical Engineer I couldn't help but seize the opportunity to do some maths on the system (please excuse rough editing, only had a few minutes to type it up). What I've attached [are] my findings doing a couple minutes maths on such a system.

In the end I came to the conclusion that simply using buoyancy alone to generate electricity can not be an over-unity process - there has to be more to the story if these Rosch generators actually work (something to do with that Neodymium?...)

While I'm fairly confident in my maths, I'm completely open to correction if someone can spot a mistake somewhere.

Anyway, I hope you're having a good week. Keep up the reporting - there's bound to be some truth out there somewhere.

Kind regards
-- 
Ryan Ross


Simple zero-gain logic: Injection of air raises water level the same it restores when vented at the top

Mark Euthanasius posted in the comments:

The drawing below should illustrate the complete futility of buoyancy drive concepts. When the float is at the bottom purging it of water requires displacing a like volume of water all the way to the surface. The float rises because denser water falls around the float pushing the float upward. When the float finally reaches the original water surface, the water level begins to fall back towards its original level. When the float reaches its final level the water level is only slightly higher than at the start due to the mass of air in the float. The energy that can be recovered on the float's travel up is the difference in mgh of the water displaced above the original surface at the start of the float's ascent and the mgh of the float above the water level at the end of the ascent. The greater the percentage of that energy that is recaptured, the slower the float ascends. When the float is flooded as long as the body is denser than water, the float descends. The heavier the float, the faster it will descend and the more energy can be recovered during the fall. However, Joule for Joule, that greater mgh potential energy becomes unavailable for recapture during the ascent. And like the ascent, the greater the percentage energy recovered, the slower the float descends.

So, at the end of the day, a buoyancy drive is a machine that lifts and drops water. All of the energy and then some that is ever available is being supplied by the compressor that purges floats when they are at the bottom of the tank.

The net mass moved lifting or dropping a float or submersible in an atmosphere is the original mass less the displaced mass of the atmosphere. Buoyancy does not change the relationship between height and gravitational potential energy. If you have a 5kg mass in a 1 liter volume, SG = 5, then in air, the net mass lifted or dropped is still so close to 5kg that in most situations we ignore the difference. If you lift or drop that mass in a tank of water, the net mass moved is 5kg - 1liter * 1kg/liter = 4kg. If you have a float that is 0.1kg then the net mass moved is: 0.1kg - 1kg = -0.9kg, which is to say that you have to perform g*h*0.9kg work to submerge the object some distance. Every nanometer that you move your float you move a like amount of surrounding atmosphere. So if you move your float 1m from the top, the bottom or the middle of the atmosphere, you also move the displaced volume of atmosphere identically 1m.


From: [P.H.] 
To: Sterling Allan 
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: Rosch Thrust Kinetic Generators


Hi Sterling,

Sadly the reason they go through such an elaborate and expensive scam is to convince people that it is not a scam.

I was made aware of this bogus science months ago when a friend from Austria told me of hundreds of people that were going to invest money, he asked me to explain how it worked in detail, I did and he checked my work with a physics professor friend at the local university who 100% agreed.

Sadly as far as I know many people have given over a million to these scammers, and your site may help them get even more. [...]

Of all the scams, this floating bubble one seems to be the most convincing to people who do not understand that it is in fact just simple physics, you compress air to inject into the bottom of the tank where the water pressure is highest, in essence the air injected in raises the water level so you can see how much work is done, then it rises and vents so you can see the water level returns (unless more air is injected in). The equivalent of this would be to keep on lifting weights and putting them on the top of a vertical wheel and when the wheel rotates the weight is returned to the ground, then you lift the weight back to the top of the wheel, no magic, simple mechanics, so is the water contraption.

I can offer you no more than my genuine advice on this matter and ask that you treat it as being a very harmful professional scam that is seeking your assistance to fleece money from a lot of good people.

By all means if they were genuine they would be prepared to fly you to Germany where you could see one in a looped configuration.

Anyway, take care


Estimated Losses

Simon Derricutt wrote:

Given the increased water-pressure at the bottom you'll need to displace the water in the float with higher-pressure air. As the float rises, then the internal pressure will drop and the excess air will bubble out. By the time it reaches the top it will be at atmospheric pressure. With a 5m high tank, the compressed air will need to be at least 1.5 bar absolute (0.5 bar gauge over atmospheric) so by the time it reaches the top it will be at around 1 bar absolute and 1/3 of it will have bubbled out.

The maximum efficiency of this machine would thus be if you filled the tanks only 2/3 full at the bottom. You'll lose energy in the compressor which will get warm and have the normal frictional losses, and the increased air temperature at the output will of course disappear into heating the water. Adding all the losses I'd expect around 70% or so efficiency as being attainable, so to get 5kW out you'd only need to take around 7-8kW from the wall-socket. Since this will be outside, of course you could cover the column with solar panels to drive the compressor and thus get free energy ;)


 

My Reasons for Believing

by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News

The above scientific arguments seem valid to me, so I must admit that this has me scratching my puzzler. Here are the reasons, in sequence of priority, why I still am inclined to believe that Rosch and their affiliate, GAIA really have a viable technology.

  1. Those large generator heads they show in several photos would not be cheap. That's a lot of expense to be going through for heavy-weight customers, who are going to have a lot of money to sue if it is a scam. Rosch is targeting utilities/governments, who are going to be doing more than adequate due diligence before plunking money and reputation down for something like this.
  2. The testing they've done on their prototypes has been viewed by many wise people, who are sure to have made careful measurements of output versus input power, and looking for possible ways to "cheat," looking for hidden wires going to the device, and measuring the power going to the building powering the device.
  3. The 5-100 MW systems are alleged to be TÜV certified. Caveat: I've not seen the actual TUV certification. Bear in mind that TUV tests are only for security, not functionality.
  4. I believe that despite what classical physics says, that there will be ways to circumvent those "laws" by using higher principles, which are also "laws" of physics (usually not yet acknowledged by mainstream science), that supersede. In this case, I'm guessing that there is a principle of buoyancy that the present physics models are overlooking, similar to how they say a magnet holding things up on a fridge is performing no "work" because work includes movement; though there is certainly a lot of "energy" manifest in that scenario due to principles of magnetism science doesn't yet understand or account for.
  5. As the person who owns http://GreaterThings.com I believe that there are always better ways to do things, ways to improve, ways to move past old paradigms -- and that doing so is what Jesus referred to as: "new wine cannot be put into old bottles." The status quo always fights the radical, new idea. Hence, I'm a champion of the underdog, because that is where the new winners will be found.
  6. They've built a lot of impressive prototypes. They also have impressive facilities. Usually scammers don't invest so much in physical devices.
  7. The plans for the 5-100 MW ROSCH power plants were drawn up by professionals. It's hard to imagine that someone with that level of skill would work on something like this if they did not have evidence that it worked.
  8. There are a lot of people involved in this project. It's hard to believe that all of them, or at least the core of them, would be colluding on some scam. They seem like genuine, Earth-loving, people-loving, freedom-loving, clean-energy connoisseurs. 

 

Rebuttal from Roberto Reuter

From: Roberto Reuter 
To: Sterling Allan 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 12:55 AM [MDT]
Subject: Re: need help with KPP buoyancy device skepticism


Dear Sterling, 

While I am waiting on my flight, let me try to explain a very important thing: 

Whatever theories telling you, the KPP does not or could not work - are wrong, because it does. To understand this is maybe the biggest issue within this whole project. 

The upcoming next days will be the very first beginning of the practical proof.

We do not argue with math nor physics concepts anymore, we show it works - that's much more.

I hope you can understand that.

with best Regards from Roberto 


From: "Verein GAIA | Roberto Reuter"
To: "Sterling Allan" 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 7:47 AM [MDT]
Subject: Re: need help with KPP buoyancy device skepticism


..another quick answer: No external power in. currently 4.8 kW power out

with best Regards from Roberto


 

Plexiglas Unit Demo Video

Here's a video showing them demonstrating their Plexiglas see-through version at a trade show. It shows the inner workings of how the compressed air fitting lines up with the rotating floats. Note that the apparatus is on wheels, which rules out hidden wires from under the device.

Video Description via Google translate

GAIA club at the Autumn Fair 2014 buoyancy power plant of the company Rosch

KLAGENFURT - An interview to boost power plant
http: //www.gaia-energy.org/es-ist-sow ...

Translation English: https: //dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5 ...

The functional model of AuKW (ROSCH Boost power plant), which the club GAIA from 17.- 21:09. 2014 presented at the Autumn Fair in Klagenfurt, sparked great interest. The opportunity for everyone, the 5m high buoyancy power plant with about 5 kWh to acquire power, also led many to great enthusiasm, but with some skepticism and disbelief.

In any case, many issues were raised at the fair, which we will try to answer in this interview.

Since the industrial production of 5kWh model by ROSCH can only be started if a minimum amount by GAIA is ordered, it is for many prospective important to get maximum safety in all aspects of the process and the implementation of this project - so that they can decide to be there as well.

Financial security:
After payment, the balance is to be paid only if the working prototype of GAIA technicians was tested. This includes confirmation of full functionality. The possibility for review of the working prototype receive all buyer. At this point, you can still cancel the order if the AuKW does not meet your expectations, you get in this case also return the deposit.

Safety in the construction:
The finished kits are delivered directly to the customer. In each region, the power plant will be built under the guidance of a trained technician from GAIA at a power plant owners. In this workshop, attended by all power plant owners from the region. There you can obtain the necessary knowledge to organize and then to build the power plants in regional groups. Who does not technically sees himself in a position to help themselves, can use the services of technically competent companies who have already offered to build power plants in different regions at moderate prices.

Functional safety:
All components of the AuKW are manufactured to industry standards with consideration for years of trouble-free operation. The key components compressor and generator have all the necessary certifications and product warranties. The plant will be designed so that it can be easily constructed, easily maintained and operated safely. Even now, companies are willing who want to take care of the regular maintenance of the power plants themselves. The maintenance cost is low and is essentially limited it to replace the water once yearly, control and possibly replacing the valves in case of leaks, and control less attachment points.

Until 30.09.2014 there is still the opportunity to register for self-sufficient as a pioneer of a new era of energy to be there and to get the power plant even at a price which reflects only the purchase price and the estimated costs for the organization and structure of workshops and not for GAIA includes commercial gain.

Here you will find all the latest information:
http: //www.gaia-energy.org/es-ist-sow ...

# # #

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See also

Resources at PESWiki.com

Page composed by Sterling D. Allan
Last updated May 09, 2015
 
 

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"It is harder to crack a prejudice than an atom." // "I'd rather be an optimist and a fool than a pessimist and right." -- Albert Einstein

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