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http://pesn.com/2014/05/03/9602482_Browns-Gas-generators_create_a_moving_target_of_Ohms-Law/
You are here:
PureEnergySystems.com > News > May 3, 2014; 8:15 pm MDT

Brown's Gas generators create a moving target of Ohm's Law

Tangent observation during H-Cat test 2: Taking resistance data on a Brown's Gas generator imposes a current (depending on the meter) which activates the HHO generator, increasing the resistance over time; and the current imposed is modified by some meters in a feedback mechanism, further exacerbating the effect.

By Sterling D. Allan  
Pure Energy Systems News

One the measurement that has been elusive in this H-Cat experimentation I've been doing has been the resistance on the HHO Generator. (Briefly, the H-Cat takes HHO gas across a catalytic converter [e.g. of a car] to produce anomalous heat that goes beyond what traditional science would predict, possibly because of something like LENR [aka cold fusion] taking place.)

The preliminary data I have on our second H-Cat test, done on May 1, is 77%, and that is before we calculate the heat lost from inadequate insulation (calculated from the cool-down data), the heat given to the trailer hitch we used as an anchor so the H-Cat wouldn't float in the water, and the heat of the metal tub. These will add approximately 15% to the efficiency number -- at least they did in our first test. And this time we have a third contribution: continued heating of the water by the H-Cat after we turned the power off to the HHO generator. The water temperature was the same 5.5 hours later. That's going to give us a big boost. Also, I neglected to record one of the 2-liters of water we put in the water bath, minus the water that leaked into the cat array in earlier experimentation while working out parameters, so we'll be adding about 1.5 L to the water bath, which will boost our measurement even more. So our net efficiency is likely to surpass 100% this time, which is always nice for convincing people that don't realize we only need to go beyond 64% to surpass what classical physics would say is possible in a system like this (75% efficient electrolysis times 85% efficient catalysis).

According to Ohm's Law, if you have two of three measurements, you can derive the third from the equation: Volts = Amps x Resistance (Ohms). If you can measure all three, then they should fit this equation, as a check point of their accuracy.

Such corroboration is important for us since we are reporting anomalous heat. Understandably, people want multiple evidences that what we are reporting is actually true.

One of the question points has been input power. Are we reading the current accurately? People say that clamp-on amp meters are not that accurate. So if we can get a good resistance measurement, then we can corroborate the amp reading were getting. Voltage is easy to get accurately. No questions there.

Last night I sent out an email to a few Brown's Gas experts, asking:

From: Sterling Allan 
To: George Wiseman ; Steve D ; Francis Giroux ; Bro Andrew ; Bob Boyce [...]
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:18 AM
Subject: how do you read ohms on HHO gen without electrolyzing?


Hi guys,

Today I discovered an interesting effect when I was trying to take resistance readings on our HHO generator.

I'm guessing that this is a phenomenon well known and understood in the hydroxy community.

I've never heard anyone talk about it; but I don't track that industry much. I did a brief Google search, but couldn't seem to find anything relevant. So maybe it's a better-kept secret.

I don't get any consistency when I read the resistance across the positive and negative terminals of the HHO generator. Separate meters don't agree, and placing the same meter on multiple times likewise gives different readings each time.

But what's more, the resistance climbs as long as the meter is hooked to the HHO generator.

I'm assuming this is a well-known phenomenon and you can refer me to explanations about what is going on.

I'm guessing that the current that the meter puts across the terminals to get the resistance reading actually produced electrolysis, and this changes the resistance, and perhaps gets into a feedback loop.

I took a lot of data today recording this phenomenon.

In particular, I zeroed in on the time I added distilled water back into the reservoir to measure how much water was consumed; figuring that this change of KOH density in the water would change the resistance. I'll be interested to see a graph of the data I've collected.

After doing this a bunch of times, I noticed that the rate of increase is not the same each time. Sometimes it's very rapid, sometimes slower.

I also noticed that at first the readings jump all over, then they start to level off -- though increasing is the trend once "stable".

Another theory I had as to why the resistance increases is that the plates are corroding or something is building up on them, increasing the resistance.

However, the fact that the rate is not constant points to there being some kind of feedback loop between the meter and the gas generator. 

Your thoughts?

I'll be uploading a video from a portion of my explanation and documentation of this phenomenon [...].


Here is my intro video:


Fran Giroux of http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/ was the first to respond, making this sound like we're talking about an exciting industry secret:

From: Francis Giroux 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 6:20 AM [MDT]
Subject: Re: how do you read ohms on HHO gen without electrolyzing?


For more interesting reading take voltage readings between plates after shutting off the HHO generator. There will be voltage and it will diminish over time. Graph it.

Then analyze both phenomena (resistance and voltage) together and you should come to the same conclusion I did.


Next came this excellent, measured response from George Wiseman of http://eagle-research.com/ -- one of the Founding Fathers of Brown's Gas, and a premier leader in the field.

From: "George Wiseman" 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 8:56 AM [MDT]
Subject: Re: how do you read ohms on HHO gen without electrolyzing?


Sterling et all,

It's interesting that you mention this today, just yesterday I responded to a person who's electrolyzer has nearly quit working due to high resistance and he was trying to diagnose the problem with an ohm-meter. 

I informed him that it was easier to diagnose electrolyzer electrical issues using voltage. Ohm-meters are unreliable when testing electrolyzers.

If there is a direct short somewhere, (preventing normal application of power without blowing a fuse), then use my simple and inexpensive capacitive amperage limiting technique to control the amperage and prevent the short from being an issue; then test electrolyzer conditions with a voltmeter.

Ohm-meters are unreliable when testing electrolyzers for many reasons, some conflicting with each other, some exacerbating. Examples include:

1. Ohm-meters actually send a current through the 'load' to measure the load resistance. ANY current will activate the electrolyzer, making gas and affecting the actual resistance. High impedance ohm-meters minimize this issue because they use less current but will still show a varying resistance as conditions in the electrolyzer change.

2. Some conditions in the electrolyzer that affect resistance are: electrolyte type, electrolyte density, electrolyte temperature, electrode shape, electrode material, buildup of non-conductive or dielectric material on the electrodes (usually by electrodeposition on the negative or oxidation on the positive), impurities in the electrolyte, etc.

3. Electrolyzers can become 'polarized' and thus give a different resistance reading if you switch the ohm-meter probes one way or the other.

4. Electrolyzers often act like capacitors and/or 'store' a charge in a variety of ways (in the electrolyte and on the electrodes). This charge usually dissipates over time but ohm-meters are not configured to compensate for it. The charge will 'skew' the meter's reading, creating more or less 'resistance' reading, depending on the polarity tested.

So my advice would be to NOT use an ohm-meter to diagnose any issues with an electrolyzer, except very general ones, and certainly don't trust that the meter reading to accurately tell you much about what is going on inside the electrolyzer; there are too many variables.

If you do use an ohm-meter, at least be aware of the variables, and how each one affects the resistance reading, so that you can use the readings to generally diagnose some issue.

May the blessings be

George Wiseman


A little later, in addition to my additional questioning, he wrote:

 

From: "George Wiseman" 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:03 PM [MDT]
Subject: Re: how do you read ohms on HHO gen without electrolyzing?


Sterling,

On 2014-05-03, at 9:31 AM, Sterling Allan wrote:

> Hi George,

> Excellent info, as expected.

> I'll be posting this, along with my observations.

> My question remains: how do you determine the ohms value for a BG machine, 
> for the purposes of ohm's law, to be able to correspond volts, amps, and 
> resistance?

> People are trained that these should be in accord. V = a x r

Since there are so many ways for the resistance to vary in an electrolyzer, and the resistance varies continually as conditions change, there is never a 'fixed' resistance or even a 'stable' resistance in an electrolyzer. 
The only way you can accurately determine a 'resistance' (at any given time) is to use the Ohms Law formula as expressed, R = I/E
R = Resistance
I = Amperage
E = Voltage

> And Fran Giroux's comment: "For more interesting reading take voltage 
> readings between plates after shutting off the HHO generator. There will be 
> voltage and it will diminish over time. Graph it. Then analyze both 
> phenomena (resistance and voltage) together and you should come to the same 
> conclusion I did."

I'm not sure what conclusion that is... There are a few that can lead to a more efficient electrolyzer and/or power supply. That's another conversation. Right now in this conversation voltage, that is formed and diminishes in the cell after the power is shut off, will affect ohm-meter readings.

The varying resistance of electrolyzers is not that big of a deal, no magic or anything 'over unity' interesting. It's just a side effect of electrolyzer conditions at any given time. This is normal, natural and easily understood.

Now the way electricity interacts with the electrolyte and the cell design parameters... That's interesting! And exploring that has (so far) led me to electrolyzer efficiencies less than 1 watt-hour per STP liter of BG produced.

May the blessings be

George


And here's a response from Brother Andrew (who is working with Bob Boyce) of HydrogenGarage.com. He does good work but isn't that great at understanding and addressing the essence of the questions I pose to him.

From: Hydrogen Garage 
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 1:55 PM [MDT]
Subject: Re: how do you read ohms on HHO gen without electrolyzing?


Hello Geo and Sterling,

Also the voltage will last longer with a cell that has less 12v or more leakage.

The more sealed each 6 cells are in 7 plate cell ( with a 12v/13.8v source, cars and trucks) a cell where no holes in the plates to allow 12v leakage, the more the sealed, the longer the charge will last with the power is shut off.

A completely sealed 7 plate or 7 tube cell, will produce 1 LPM at 10 amps x 12.5v. A isolated tube in the plate holes will produce about 1 LPM per 12.5 amps x 12.5 v 

A cell with holes for gas out and water in will produce 1 LPM at 18amps x 12.5v ) and will get warm after an hour of running, also your water will slowly turn reddish (anode mud) as a sealed cell will NOT get warm, the energy makes more gas and less heat and your water stays clean, once it is cleansed and conditioned ( according to BB method)

Andrew


Data

Meanwhile, I've entered some data sets from the same meter, without changing the meter, either moving the clips or turning it on/off. I videotaped this whole segment so you can double check my data. At the point indicated, as shown in the video, I added 2.03 ml of distilled water to bring the reservoir level back up to where it was when we started the water bath test on the H-Cat. This was to calibrate the input water on the H-Cat math.  I used a 50 ml syringe to measure the water we added in; and I used a hose connected to the syringe to connect to the incoming port from the HHO generator to shoot the water down there to mix it into the HHO generator below -- about 500 ml in all.

By the way, we had the output bagged off to measure any out-flowing gas. No gas whatsoever was collected. The bag was as empty at the end, as it was at the beginning of the test. 

Here's the spreadsheet download link.

You can see that diluting the KOH concentration reduced the rate of rise of the resistance, as we would expect.

Not sure what's going on there at the end. Here's a close-up of those last two data sets. I drew an extrapolation line through the two sets. The line on the left will be the same as what is shown to the left of it above. I don't remember unplugging or changing anything prior to that last data set. Perhaps the water had time to mix more by then?



Here's the video of that last data set: http://youtu.be/ihlG2qTvF1w 


Here's a close-up on the data from the first three data sets, so you can see now the individual points are in line.


The earlier data set is in a long video that's going to take 6 hours to render before uploading. I'll render it tonight after I'm done with my computer, so it doesn't slow things down for me.


Pending

I took a bunch of videos of meters while they were rising, different meters, turning them off, then on again, seeing different rates when they are turned on again.

I think you'll see more than enough to corroborate what George Wiseman and I said above.

I'll post the videos here once they're uploaded, so come back if you're interested in seeing that data.

I don't think I'll take the time to enter the data into a spreadsheet, more than what I've already done above. I think the sampling I've given makes the case well enough. But if one of you wants to do that, I'd be glad to post it here.

Videos:
(Once they're all uploaded, I plan to combine them into one. That's why their status is "unlisted".)


Conclusion

Taking resistance data on a Brown's Gas generator is a perfect example of Heisenburg's uncertainty principle: the act of observing changes the outcome. In this case, the observing meter imposes a current which activates the HHO generator, changing the resistance; and the current imposed is modified by some meters in a feedback mechanism, further exacerbating the effect.

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Page posted by Sterling D. Allan Jan. 29, 2011
Last updated May 06, 2014
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