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http://pesn.com/2012/04/11/9602072_Les_Banki_on_the_Secret_of_Achieving_Overunity_with_Hydroxy_Using_Injectors/
You are here:
PureEnergySystems.com > News > April 11, 2012

Les Banki on the Secret of Achieving Overunity with Hydroxy Using Injectors

Famous HHO researcher points out that the function of fuel injectors in relation to their function when hydroxy in the gas state is run through them needs to be appreciated and understood for successful operation.


by Charles Michael Couch 
for Pure Energy Systems News


Here is some useful new information on Direct injection of HHO and detailed results of COPY>3 in HHO Systems...

In a post to WatercarTWO, Les Banki <lesbanki {at} rocketmail.com>, famous HHO researcher puts the direct injection discussion into perspective...

Re: Fuel injection; Thu Apr 5, 2012 9:02 pm

Gergely,

You are one of those who have asked me to explain what I mean by, (quote from my post):

"It seems that none of you realize that IF you are to use HydrOxy ONLY for ANY engine, you are dealing with Gas! Exclusively! Period.

May I also point out that all your existing injectors are made for liquid fuel.

They are NOT suitable for gas!

That is why there are injectors made for gas.

They are very different from liquid fuel injectors.

Using them is a different "ball game". "

Everyone:

By reading the above quote a few times you may come to realize that the answer is right in front of you!

Note carefully the words I have used.

Especially the word suitable.

Note also that I did NOT use the word compatible.

OK.

Here we go:

First, ask yourselves one question: Why are Gas Injectors manufactured? ??

The answer is simple and it is not even "motor trade" specific, just general physics.

It is fuel VOLUME delivering capacity!

You all know that liquid fuel is highly "concentrated" (for the lack of a better word) as far as energy goes.

You also know (or should know!) that the same fuel (meaning: containing the same energy) in VAPOR form occupies a space which is ENORMOUS, compared to its liquid VOLUME!

Since we are dealing with water as a fuel here, perhaps we can use water as an example here, for the purpose of illustrating my point.

So, let's say we have 1 liter of water. It contains a certain amount of energy.

(whatever it is, it is not important for this explanation)

Now we "condition" this 1 liter of water to be in GAS form (HydrOxy).

Its VOLUME???

Ordinarily, it will be around 1860 – 2000 liters.

Should you be so clever (or `lucky') to make 100% mono atomic gases, its VOLUME would be close to 4000 liters!!!

Enter the INJECTOR.

IF we could "burn" water "as is", the injector would have to only deliver MINUSCULE amount of fine mist (still liquid).

Just like the injectors for petrol (gasoline). OK?

However, our fuel (HydrOxy) is no longer in liquid form!

Now, do any of you still believe that ordinary injectors made for liquid fuels will be able to deliver that HUGE volume of gas to the engine???

I could `test' your knowledge further or simply `stir' you by asking if you know the relationship between volume and the pressures required to deliver it but considering that not a single one of you `picked up' on my statement, I don't think I will bother.

Instead, I will give you some figures (numbers) but if you choose to argue the point, you are on your own!

Say you wish to increase the VOLUME of fuel delivered by the injector.

You want to DOUBLE the volume. What is the required pressure to do that?

Double?

NO.

It is 4 times.

Do you want 3 times the original volume?

The pressure is now 9 times!

Do you want to go to 4 times of the original volume?

The pressure is now 16 times of what you started with!

Should you want 10 times more fuel injected, the pressure you need will be 100 times the original pressure!!

As you can see, mathematically, the pressure required is the volume increase squared.

To be even more specific, let's put some practical numbers in.

One of the generators I have has a 420cc engine. (rated output is 7 kW, continuous)

For the ease of calculations, let's say it needs 12 L/min. of HydrOxy to run.

Dividing 12 liters by 60 (seconds), we get 0.2 L/second.

However, since the fuel INTAKE is only Ό of the engine's work cycle, that 0.2 L gas

must be injected in Ό of a second!!

In reality, this means that the poor injector would have to deliver that 0.2 L gas at the rate of 0.8 L/second!

You are welcome to try it and please come back to report your results, particularly the PRESSURE you had to use!

Needless to say, all that fuel is injected in many cycles, depending on engine RPM.

(An engine running at 3600 RPM has 1800 work cycles per minute.

That is 30 injections/ignition s per second.)

But that will not change what I have stated above.

Do you still feel like using fuel injectors made for liquid fuel for HydrOxy injection under ENORMOUS pressure?

Do you REALLY understand the SAFETY implications of this?

You may be forgetting that this ENORMOUS pressure also means ENORMOUS dangers!

IMO, such a set-up would be bordering on INSANITY! No kidding!

I, for one, would NOT want to be around such a set up!

One slight mishap and you are DEAD! Period.

If you have ever experimented with `blowing up' HydrOxy, you will have an idea of the POWER in that gas.

Otherwise, you really don't have a clue of what you are dealing with!!

Remember, I DID NOT SAY that injectors made for liquid fuel can not inject gas.

Indeed they can and will (shortly) describe a delightful little experiment I made all those years ago!

All I said was (and I repeat it): "They are NOT suitable for gas!"

I urge you all to pick up an injector for liquid fuel and one made for gas.

Have a good, hard look at them.

What do you see?

One has a TINY (like a `pin hole') "spray" orifice and the other has an opening of several millimeters diameter!!

As an example of a gas injector, I have a `JET 21', made by Poliauto in Italy.

Its output port ID is 5.8mm!!

But its typical working pressure is rated at only 70 kPa rel. (10.15 PSI) and the maximum is 120 kPa rel. (17.4 PSI).

As for the various types of injection used in car engines, I will not enter the discussion or arguments.

At present, virtually all generators are equipped with conventional, carbureted engines.

Gergely, you wrote, quote:

" After the bubbler then you'll have a rail with set pressure filled with hydroxy.

At the end of the rail attach a stock injector controlled by the ECU or for testing, a simple PWM."

NO.

My choice is to remove the carburetor, make a simple air intake manifold (if necessary) and fit the gas injector to the manifold, as close to the cylinder inlet as practical.

Thus, the gas is injected into the intake manifold when the intake valve is open and by the time it closes at the end of the intake stroke, it is all sucked into the cylinder, together with the air so there is NO gas left in the manifold during the other Ύ of the cycle.

I consider this to be important because IF there is a backfire, there is NO gas to explode in the inlet manifold!

You also mentioned ECU control.

Sure.

I too named my control unit ECU, however, as you know, I don't use microprocessors!

Remember, with HydrOxy ONLY, there are only TWO parameters to be controlled:

1. Ignition timing

2. Injection

Hell, I don't need a microprocessor for that!

Just to refresh everyone's memories, here is what I wrote in my article

Ignition system for small engines 2 :

"It needs to be pointed out that the ignition system for HydrOxy ONLY (not just a booster) will be very different from ignition systems for hydrocarbon fuels.

It will be significantly simpler.

There will be NO "speed mapping", NO "load mapping", NO retard/advance change with engine RPM, NO rich/lean mixture setting, NO cold start setting, NO "knock sensor", NO fuel/air temperature sensor, NO Oxygen sensor, etc., etc.,

("modern" engines are full of all that rubbish!)

There will be NO need for high energy sparks, multiple sparks, etc.

Further, there will be NO such thing as UNBURNED fuel remaining in the cylinders!!

In short; when we get to the larger engines (cars), the first thing we have to do is to rip out the "computer" and install our own system, incorporating electronic injection as well.

(Perhaps another option could be to completely re-program the `computer', provided that one could obtain the original programming software from the manufacturer, which, I would say, is HIGHLY unlikely!)

I am in favor of electronic injection (but ONLY for HydrOxy) for three reasons:

1. I reason that if we allow HydrOxy to flow continuously, some of it may disappear during the other Ύ of the engine's work cycle. (the intake stroke is only Ό cycle)

2. If HydrOxy is ALWAYS present in the intake manifold, we may risk a damaging back fire.

3. Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) makes RPM control possible.

Now to that experiment with the liquid fuel injector I mentioned earlier:

Briefly, here is how that experiment came about.

One day my son (Karl) came home from work with a 'faulty' fuel injector.

One of his friends at work had a problem with his car and the mechanic traced the problem to one of the injectors and replaced it.

Karl asked if he could have the faulty one and the friend said yes so he brought it home.

To be honest, this was the first time I ever saw an injector `at close range'!

As it turned out, the injector itself was not faulty at all but there was a pin hole in the short rubber hose which was permanently attached to it.

Anyway, I thought, what can I do with this injector?

I replaced the leaking hose and attached it to the gas output of the electrolyzer I had at the time.

However, I needed to control the gas input to it and then ignite the gas coming out.

So I quickly set up an old spark plug, ignition coil and a `transistor' electronic ignition.

I also set up an electronic injection control an a `bread board'.

[I just found the old, hand drawn diagram the other day.

The ignition was set to approx. 1.3 Hz – 18.5 Hz.

Injection pulse width was adjustable from about 100 ΅s to 2.1 ms. There was also an adjustable delay (few milliseconds) stage to allow the injector to close before the spark arrived]

I simply placed the injector flat on the bench top and also the spark plug, facing the output orifice of the injector. The distance between them was about 30 mm.

I also placed a plastic "spaghetti" (about 15 mm diameter) between the injector and the spark plug. That was to prevent the gas rising (and disappearing! ) too quickly!

Thus, what I had was effectively an open ended `cylinder'.

One end had the injector and the other end the spark plug, both entering the "spaghetti" openings slightly.

I turned on the electrolyzer, built up the pressure to 15 PSI and then turned the power off.

First, I set the `speed' control to minimum, powered up the injection/ignition electronics and the show started!!

I tell you. It was MUSIC to my ears!

It started firing about once a second and as I was turning up the `speed', it was like rapidly repeating miniature EXPLOSIONS!

It sounded like a miniature "lawn mower"!!

I truly enjoyed playing with it and demonstrated it to many who were interested!

After a couple weeks I got the idea to have it in a CLOSED (aluminium) cylinder, so I made one on the lathe.

Fitted the injector, screwed in the spark plug and turned the power on.

At the VERY FIRST firing, it ruined the injector!

To cut the story short, I learned many lessons about injectors and injection methods.

Apart from the TINY volume of gas delivery, probably the most important lesson was that DI (Direct Injection) requires special, VERY robust injectors made for that purpose!

Once again, keep in mind that I did all these "weird" things about 16-17 years ago!

Nowadays, my designs (both electronics and mechanical) are more refined and work much better.

I dare say that once you know HOW, it is no big deal to run engines on water alone!

Cheers,

Les Banki

In closing, just so you have someone else's opinion on this subject (not just mine), I paste here a series of posts by `bolt' at overunity.com:

Pay special attention to his last post in red text! (my emphasis)

Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output <http://www.overunity.com/...> « Reply #107 on: December 27, 2010, 08:53:29 PM »

Yes its a OU system! The energy we put in is less then that provided by other sources. Radiant Energy or water who cares. The excess is enough where its looped. If the energy transformed only from water it doesn't explain how the TPU and Kapanadze works when they don't need water. Better a common factor of Radiant Energy powers all three devices.

Its funny when you show people a COP>1 system they say "its a measurement error its not COP>1 if it is then you should be able to loop it" Guess what? This is a looped OU device!

400 watts DC yields about COP 3 without resonance via the energy contained within the HHO mix as its recombined within a spark. See Atomic Hydrogen Torches and as much as COP 12 with 3 phase resonance systems. So 3 * 400 = 1200 watts nett effective including RE. There are two things we know are instant energy debts here. The lamp 400 watts I think = 1200 - 400 = 800 watts and also the cell need 400 watts so I have 400 watts to run the engine and cover the alternator losses. The alternator is going to lose perhaps 150 watts from mechanical to electrical so I got 250 watts left to keep the motor itself turning. Will it loop? YES! PS if the lamp is larger then its taken from this 250 watts.

The 250 watts is left within the system and keeps the motor and generator running overcoming the friction losses of the bearings, piston friction and valve gear to maintain about 3000 rpm.

The system is scalable the French did this years ago on 25kw genset it runs on pure water and provides like 10KW OU.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 09:17:50 PM by bolt » Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output <http://www.overunity.com/...> « Reply #358 on: March 10, 2011, 03:00:47 PM »

  • [Reply with quote] Quote

<http://www.overunity.com/...>

When HHO is ignited under great pressure like 150-200 PSI with ICE the power is greatly magnified. Like when you trap HHO in a container then ignite it the explosion almost takes your roof off! Anyone that tries to store any amount of HHO in containers at pressures over 7 PSI has just made a lethal weapon particularly where its raised to pressure like 100 PSI its highly unstable and will try at any time to convert all that energy back to water.

HHO recombination is an electron migration process where water is used as a Zero Point Energy proxy. So the water is not actually the fuel even though it will consume water. For all practical purpose who cares it uses water? As HHO burns thru metals and raises to thousands of degrees the process has been measured as OU as electrons are accelerated at huge speeds form kinetic energy bombards the adjacent molecules in the material being heated and the temperature is raised several magnitudes hotter than the HHO flame itself. The process is improved higher by high voltage spark at flame point as within Atomic Welding. High voltage spark adds abundance of free electrons. See early 1900's books already recognised this process as OU.

For HHO heaters use rock ore materials with high crystal content not metal. As crystal excited by extreme heat the crystals are energised release more and more high speed electrons as piezoelectric effect into adjacent material heating >3000 degrees. The process goes OU. Special cut rock is then built up around the heat chamber to make a HHO core reactor. Then conventional fire bricks cover the stack to make a 300 degree IR radiant heater. Several patents on this already.

Typically the HHO yields a COP 3 within ICE when all the other parameters have been perfected for engine timing etc.

So if you put 1000 watts into your cell you have 3000 watts of energy within the engine. Take off 1000 you need to give back to keep the cell going plus engine losses, friction and alternator conversion loss etc so total you need to give back 2000 watts of this energy. Now you have 1000 watts OU available to run a load. You can see by making engine super efficient you have 1000 watts here which can be recovered rather then giving it back as losses so as the process is refined you get over 1000 watts OU.

Now you can see without any PWM driving and special tuning already the process has a COP 3. By using PWM high frequency drives, ultrasonic water fog injection, resonance tuned alternator, the COP can easily exceed 5 even higher.

So if you perfected everything and used PWM etc reaching a COP of 10 within a car engine is not impossible in fact its very achievable as others have done this already. You need a 5kW cell to get 50kW out the engine running only HHO and nothing else. Perfect for a small car.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 03:38:05 PM by bolt »

Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output <http://www.overunity.com/...> « Reply #348 on: February 21, 2011, 12:02:45 AM »

  • [Reply with quote] Quote

<http://www.overunity.com/...>

I find it VERY strange how one of the most exciting disclosures of recent times witnessing a gasoline engine running on water and generating 400w has the quietest thread? Maybe its a mental block or a spell cast over mankind where there are more thrills within under unity 1 watt TOYS or perhaps Sports TV in HD has been good lately? Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output <http://www.overunity.com/...> « Reply #375 on: March 11, 2011, 12:18:57 AM »

  • [Reply with quote] Quote

<http://www.overunity.com/...>

You don't have to make advanced PWM's to test this engine. DC is good enough already COP 3 via ICE so if you tune everything correctly it will work from the get go. Even if you are very sloppy and use all of the COP 3 to keep the engine running with nothing left for a load it makes a nice OU water powered heater:)

While Les has covered all the dots and crossed the t's IMO is terribly complex for DIY replication. It looks like a 1980's TV circuit LOL

You can do everything required using an AVR micro which only cost about 15 bucks. Then you add a hall sensor to pin 2, one power fet to pin 5 via a driver and a car ignition coil and you are good to go. Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output <http://www.overunity.com/... > « Reply #386 on: March 13, 2011, 06:07:43 PM »

  • [Reply with quote] Quote

<http://www.overunity.com/...>

True this is not anything fancy like a bob Boyce system. HHO production tweaks can be done later but already the system has a COP 3 with basic DC control of the cell.

The logic here is just like a car engine ECU which controls the start sequence and sets the correct timing. While it can be done using gears and cogs its not very elegant and still has no control over engine speed so might as well do everything at the same time using a processor. Once you have proper control over gas production and the timing you got proper control over the engine.

Re: Selfrunning HHO system with 400 Watts additional output <http://www.overunity.com/...> « Reply #383 on: March 12, 2011, 05:16:21 PM »

  • [Reply with quote] Quote

<http://www.overunity.com/...>

Quote

Bolt, are you planning on raising the compression ratio on your motor?

No its unnecessary and risk of engine damage.

Quote

On the Woodpecker video a flashback device is very close to the motor inlet and the HHO is piped straight in. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodpecker1311#p/a/u/1/kTFVW8w8bjI Also on that video when the HHO is removed the engine continues to run and surge. I suspect there is still some hydrocarbon vapors remaining?

You wont get rid of carbon vapours its a 4 stroke engine and therefore it is lubricated by oil and will show very tiny amounts in exhaust BUT its not the source of fuel.

Quote

On the Scarecrow videos from 2008 a 3.5 hp generator is shown running on HHO with many flashback booms during start up. On the final and postmortem videos he mentions 6 LPM @ 1000 watts was required for idle and 9 LPM @ 2000 watts was required to run at full speed with a small load. He did not make any timing or compression changes. http://www.youtube.com/user/SmartScarecrow#p/c/C547458B2E914426/1/APpGvV\WsZZ8

I hope you are wearing ear protection in your tests. From watching the available videos it looks like starting the engine on gasoline to get the engine temperature up quickly could make for a smoother transition.

Best of luck, RD

if you don't change the timing the engine runs like a pig, back fires, can bend valves and can burn hole in piston. Plus it requires a HUGE amount of gas just to barely run. When properly tuned and blank spark sorted all these issues vanish. Thanks for your input!

« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:52:49 PM by bolt »

--- In watercarTWO@ yahoogroups. com, "g3rg3ly" <gergely.domolki@ ...> wrote:
>
> What if... you have a cell wich is controlled by a pressure switch,
just like Les designed his system. After the bubbler then you'll have a
rail with set pressure filled with hydroxy. At the end of the rail
attach a stock injector controlled by the ECU or for testing, a simple
PWM.
> What would happen? Good monoatomic Hydrogen recombines to H2
immidiately as the nozzle releasing the gas or what?
> Or something else happens?
> At the moment this construction seems to be the simplest possible.
> What is wrong with it I did not realize so far?
>
> Gergely

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